Curse

TheGizzy · Mar 26, 2011, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Scarlet

This is semantics i know...

EoTN is an expansion yes(i consider it to be the same as a campaign just without the new professions)

With all due respect, Saint Scarlet, and I do mean that sincerely since my feeling is you've conducted yourself well through these discussions...

it really is not a matter of semantics. That's kind of like asserting that the green grass is actually purple and when someone disagrees, you replying that it's just a matter of semantics.

In the gaming industry, a campaign represents the stand-alone content for which no other content is required in order for it to function. An expansion is content which is added on to existing content - the original game... the campaign. This isn't something that's really subject TO debate. They have distinct and established meanings all their own.

People ARE going to respond when you tell them that the green grass is purple, especially in a discussion like this. The rest of the discussion stems from your assertion that the green grass is purple... it's not. It never was, and it's never going to be. Prophecies, Factions and Nightfall are campaigns - they can be played completely without any additional content required. EotN and the BMP (and actually, even WiK, WoC, Hearts) are expansions... they require one of the core campaigns in order to access and utilize them.

They do not stand on their own, so they are not campaigns.

Saint Scarlet · Mar 26, 2011, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Please don't get me wrong, i love GW, and yes they have released a ton of playable content free(as they said they would). I just feel they have strayed a bit from their original path.
@ Lasai - I agree that people do tend to forget what comes free and focuses on what we have paid for, but it's because people have to earn money to pay for things that they feel it's a burden. Even Anet staffers have to earn money and i'm sure they begrudge having to pay for certain things.
@ TheGizzy - Sry i meant that my post is a matter of semantics, which is why i did the .......

Lasai · Mar 26, 2011, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Scarlet

Please don't get me wrong, i love GW, and yes they have released a ton of playable content free(as they said they would). I just feel they have strayed a bit from their original path.
@ Lasai - I agree that people do tend to forget what comes free and focuses on what we have paid for, but it's because people have to earn money to pay for things that they feel it's a burden. Even Anet staffers have to earn money and i'm sure they begrudge having to pay for certain things.

I don't begrudge a purchase voluntarily made, when that purchase gives me exactly what I paid for. Nobody forces me to do that. Nor do I expect that purchase to include items sold separately from my original purchase, no matter how desirable.

In my case I got exactly what was offered with the game and expansion purchases. In fact.. I got more, as the game has been enhanced far above my original purchase at no cost. Any addons have been exactly what I paid for. I begrudge nothing because I was forced to purchase nothing. Everything has been a voluntary expenditure of my entertainment dollars.

Does that mean I was always happy with a purchase.. no. I hate the BMP pack, and it sits undone.. I loath not playing my char, I hate worms, Thackary and Pokemon/Polymock for the same reason. Still.. it was exactly what I paid for, and not doing the BMP hasn't affected my game in the least bit.

Poruku · Mar 26, 2011, 04:50 AM // 04:50

We don't have to pay for updates.

Although, I consider all the stuff in the store that we can pay for 'content'. They never said they're release free content (Although, they have anyways).

Business is business, though.

sirblack · Mar 26, 2011, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Scarlet

Is all the content we have had to pay for acceptable after going back and looking at this statement?

Working with your definition of content as anything added to the game...

Pay-for content:
- extra storage panes
- extra character slots
- makeovers
- name changes
- costumes
- Mercenary Heroes

Now to put that in the context of other non-campaign content added to the game...

Free content:
- Skill and monster balance updates
- Balthazar Faction and the ability to use it for unlocking
- Observer Mode
- Sorrow's Furnace
- Tomb of Primeaval Kings as a PvE area
- every holiday event
- the ability to Reconnect
- Titles (they may have corresponded in time with Factions, but didn't require its purchase)
- Scrimmage matches
- Revised Dye system and user interface
- Xunlai Tournament House
- Passage scrolls to elite areas
- Hard Mode
- Enhanced rewards and quests in elite areas (chests, Dhuum, etc)
- Revised Favor of the Gods system
- Concise skill descriptions
- Automated Tournaments, Tournament Reward Points, etc
- Weekend events, Nicholas the Traveler, Zaishen Quests, etc
- Codex Arena
- War In Kryta
- Hearts of the North
- Embark Beach
- 7 heroes
- probably some other things I missed...

So looking at all the pay-for content compared with all the other freely added content... Considering all the pay-for content is extremely optional and in some cases entirely cosmetic... And considering how much of the free content considerably enhanced the game experience for many or all players... Even if you want to argue that anything pay-for violates the exact wording of that particular spot... Personally, I'm fine with it overall.

In hindsight I wonder if one could read that original statement about not paying for additional content as them saying that they would add some new free content between campaigns but not as saying all new content that they would ever add would necessarily be free. (And that's without even getting into the idea that the definition of "content" used in the statement might be somewhat different than "absolutely anything added to the game".)

FoxBat · Mar 26, 2011, 05:28 AM // 05:28

"Content" is adventures/quests/missions/dialogue/etc. Basically, new things to do. That's what "content designers" populate the world with. So yes, BMP would violate what they said. Costumes, character slots, mercs, storage, fire imps, bonus items are not content. Nor would a hypothetical new profession, new skills, or +50 vs everything sword, it has nothing to do with advantageous or not, and basically nothing to do with your character options.

Verene · Mar 26, 2011, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

So yes, BMP would violate what they said.

Except it didn't, because the BMP did not come out between campaigns. Eye of the North is not a campaign, and no opinion saying "but I think" changes facts on that.

"You do not have to pay...for additional content that we will provide between the campaigns of Guild Wars. "

Seriously, reading comprehension really isn't that difficult, people...

Saint Scarlet · Mar 26, 2011, 05:43 AM // 05:43

I personally categorize content as anything that goes into the games that has nothing to do with mechanics. to me there are 2 sorts of content, playable and upgrade. Skills are not content they are mechanics. Just my opinion.
Words can have slightly different meanings and definitions depending on who is reading them (a major source of misunderstandings is that they have a different viewpoint than others when certain words/terms are used).

@ sirblack - When you view it as a list like that it does show that for free we have received probably treble, that which has been in the shop. Value for money is down to ones personal opinion on the matter. And yes i've had value for money over the years, i'm just concerned about the increase in buyable to free ratio(not to mention the increase in cost of said content).

@ Verene - I was asking for your viewpoint, not for you to have a go at people for the way they interpret words/terms/statements

wilebill · Mar 26, 2011, 06:03 AM // 06:03

In my opinion, no they have not changed their business model.

yitjuan · Mar 26, 2011, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

So yes, BMP would violate what they said. .

my Bonus Mission Pack was free. I would rather it remained exclusive and not sold to the rest of the world, but what can I do about it.

Tal L · Mar 26, 2011, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

No it isn't. We've never had to pay for additional content between campaigns (which mercenary heroes are most definitely not). Remember that Anet is a business and they need to make money; merc heroes is just a way to do that.

Sorry but I must disagree with you. The bonus mission pact gave money and weaponary to people which otherwise were not obtainable. Secondly in the the Zaishen Mengarie e.g. animals can be bought by real $$$, which again brings un- cosmetic and un-balance to the game. There are many minute examples you just have to follow the green bricks road.

*lemming* · Mar 26, 2011, 09:37 AM // 09:37

This thread feels familiar.

Kelfer · Mar 26, 2011, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

You can still buy all 3 games and EoTN and play them free

A'Net do a superb job and have only recently added a few in-game wares to generate some revenue.

They need some cash to keep up what's coming up. Think about it!
GW:B content & GW2, you want that for nothing? Keep dreaming!

Don't bash it!

Davros Uitar · Mar 26, 2011, 10:08 AM // 10:08

I love how people only appreciate the small amount that others choose (or choose not) to buy and totally disresepect the 95% that they get for free. Really guys and gals - perspective is a grand thing - how bout some people like the thread starter go out and get some? How about just sitting down and looking at what you got out of the game and for once looking at your glass as mostly full rather that only looking to see what the other guy has in his glass.

Bellatrixa · Mar 26, 2011, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Scarlet

Please don't get me wrong, i love GW, and yes they have released a ton of playable content free(as they said they would). I just feel they have strayed a bit from their original path

No offence, but how do you expect them to fund all this free content? Rainbows and pixie dust?

When a game is knocking on 6 years old, it's not going to sell enough copies to fund the game to the same level that it once was. I actually applaud ANet for keeping the in game store reasonable in terms of items and cost. I WILL say that the MHs are a bit too pricey for my tastes, but they are not something that I, or anyone else, NEEDS. They are OPTIONAL. As said before in the threads that got locked (and I suspect this one will also get locked before long), there are MUCH worse game publishers out there in terms of money-hunger who provide MUCH worse services. If ANet put items in the cash shop that gave a severe advantage to other players (like a 10x exp scroll that lasted a week) or affected my personal gameplay, then yes, I'd be up in arms. Currently there are no items that do that and they have acknowledged themselves that they do not want to be like that. The moment they DO become like that, then I shall be no longer giving them my money or time.

In terms of their original business model, I'd say they've stuck by that pretty damn well and good job on doing so to them. The game still has no monthly subscription, no cash items that you end up feeling obligated to buy so you can finish the game or achieve certain titles, and still provides regular free content and services. The balance between purchaseable and free content seems perfectly fine to me at the moment. When it doesn't, I will change my opinion. I honestly don't see it getting to that state as ANet are not Nexon, Blizzard, EA, Zynga or part of Viacom. They're relying on the playerbase of GW to give GW2 a good start. Of course they're not going to piss us off too badly. The true test of their original business model will be when GW2 launches and what changes (if any) there will be then.

Quru · Mar 26, 2011, 11:07 AM // 11:07

I think we can't say anything about the business model of GW2, if that's the problem. Fact is that Anet isn't making any profit atm, it's fully understandable as they are working on a new game, but still we have great live team and we get new free content. Guild Wars is dying game in terms of sales. Server mainentance costs have to be paid and I think it isn't Anet that is the "greed and evil" with RMT DLC, but NCsoft. As GW2 comes out it will sell huge amounts all around the world and as technology goes on, server mainentance costs for MMORPG are smaller than in example when WoW came out. Mercenary heroes, character slots, storage tabs, costumes etc. etc. aren't making profit, that small income is just needed for mainentance. GW2 will make profit on it's own. It isn't slippery slope. It as solid ground until proven otherwise.

BladeDVD · Mar 26, 2011, 12:17 PM // 12:17

For me, I focus more on the "have to pay" part of the quote.

So far, you've only had to buy "the games" (Proph, Factions, NF, EotN, BMP (sort of)) and everything else in the online store doesn't give anyone a real advantage over anyone else, and so wasn't required to feel like you were on the same playing field as everyone else. (Someone pointed out the skill packs to me in the last thread, but that's a pretty temporary benefit and not much different from someone buying the game in 2005 vs. someone buying it today.)

Mercenary Heroes is the closest I've seen Anet get to putting in something that gives a real in game benefit, but I haven't really heard too much about them being different from the 7 hero update yet. (I know others have said that regardless of how good the builds may be, MH gives more build options, but that's just another way to enjoy the game, it doesn't necessarily make you able to play the main play experience faster than anyone else, so it's still a cosmetic benefit.)

I'm hoping they go on sale soon. I'd like to give them a try.

beerelf · Mar 26, 2011, 12:47 PM // 12:47

To my mind none of us have to pay a penny to gain in game advantage, nor is there any bar to entry for any player who chooses not to make a purchase (BMP aside).
I've bought several items over the years, but when I weight it up against how much enjoyment (and frustration) I've had over the years, I'm very happy to say that I don't begrudge a single penny that I have paid.

Compare this to other FtP games out there and you'll realise that GW is a paradise.

gremlin · Mar 26, 2011, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Some years ago we had a thread here about how all games had micro transactions.
The ops argument was that wow was subscription based at so much per month and gw was also subscription based with prophesies being the first payment factions the second etc.

That op was wrong and I think you are too.

If you are barred from an area or unable to play a particular character class unless you purchase an update then yes that is a change in their business practice, we do not have that.

The current "enhancements" available in the online store in no way prevent you from completing or enjoying the game as it was advertised when you purchased it.
Nor does it prevent you enjoying or completing the game as it is now.
They are not essential to the game and so are not "must have" add ons that you "have to pay for"

All these enhancements are either cosmetic or add a little variety to the game variety that players have been asking for.

Yes with the merc add on a solo player can custom design a party that cannot be done without that add on.
Players are welcome to pair up with a friend and so exactly the same better in fact because all the heroes can be flagged and the party can split up which can be important in some missions.

enter_the_zone · Mar 26, 2011, 02:00 PM // 14:00

The BMP was initially a reward for spending over $30 in the shop in July 2007.

It was only made available to purchase in January 2008.... probably because of all the QQing in places like this from the very same individuals who are now QQing and complaining they had to buy it and accusing Anet of betraying them, while at the same time missing the point that not a single one of the items for sale has ever made a significant difference to any of the campaigns, which is essentially what Anet stated in their original philosophy.

A philosphy which Anet could shit on and set on fire and still not betray because it was very specific about applying between campaigns....and there are no more campaigns.